Saving Bread
Saving Bread explores sourdough, grain, fermentation, craftsmanship, and the people keeping real bread alive. Join baker and educator Allison White for practical lessons and thoughtful conversations with bakers, millers, farmers, oven makers, and others shaping the future of bread.
Long live real bread.
Saving Bread
Interviews E03 Campbell McFarlane - Building RackMaster and Supporting a New Generation of Bakers
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What began as Campbell McFarlane’s own obsession with sourdough eventually became RackMaster- an oven designed to give home, cottage, and small-scale bakers access to thoughtfully engineered equipment without requiring a traditional bakery.
In this episode, Campbell shares how he moved from baking in Dutch ovens and a small deck oven to designing one of the most recognizable ovens in the cottage-baking world. We talk about the very real learning curve that comes with moving into open deck baking, why a great oven cannot disguise poorly fermented dough, and what bakers should expect when increasing their production.
We also explore the remarkable community that has grown around RackMaster. Campbell is known not only for making equipment, but for freely sharing his knowledge, answering questions at nearly any hour, delivering ovens to extraordinarily remote places, and helping bakers become the best they can be.
In this conversation:
- How Campbell first became hooked on sourdough
- The experiences that inspired him to develop the RackMaster oven
- Why switching from Dutch ovens to deck baking requires bakers to reassess their dough
- Steam, oven loading, and learning to work with a new baking environment
- The many products bakers make in RackMaster ovens beyond bread
- How the ovens have helped cottage bakers increase production and build businesses
- Campbell’s belief in sharing knowledge without gatekeeping
- The worldwide community of bakers supporting one another
- Why Campbell considers himself available approximately “18/7”
This is a conversation about ovens, but even more than that, it is about giving bakers the tools, encouragement, and access they need to keep the craft of real bread moving forward.
Find Campbell:
Instagram: @campbell2664
Outside North America: rackmaster.co.uk
North American availability: Pleasant Hill Grain
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast. I wanted to mention a few things before I get into today's interview, which I'm very excited to announce and talk about. The podcast has received an overwhelming amount of support. We are trending globally. I've had messages from people all over the world who are excited and supportive, and it's been such a joy. And I know that this will just continue to grow and be such a peaceful and respectful place for people in our community to come and all sit down at the same table and share information. And it just makes me so happy that others are enjoying this project. And I can't wait to see where it goes. So thank you. Thank you for all of the work that you've done. If you listen to the podcast and you're enjoying it, please send it to two or three of your friends who can listen and enjoy it. Follow us on Instagram at the Saving Bread Podcast. Give us a like on Apple Podcasts and leave a review. Just any little extra things that you feel called to do to help the podcast grow would just mean the world to us. So again, thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting. Thank you for sharing. And for being here and being on this ride with me and on this ride with me and Leah as we explore the bread world and the podcast world. Today is an interviews episode, and one I'm really looking forward to sharing with all of you. We have Campbell McFarland, who is the creator, innovator of the Rack Master Oven. He also makes other types of equipment for baking. He's got bench knives and pans and all sorts of things that we chat about. And I think by the end of this interview, you will understand why he has such a strong following. He's authentic, he is caring, he is devoted, and he stays curious. And our conversation revolves around the oven and what he makes, yes, but also around his vision for what he hopes to see in the bread community and the people who are buying his ovens and this platform that he's helped create. Because let's be honest, without the cottage ovens, many of us who have these dreams to bake for our community wouldn't be able to do it. He's provided a canvas for us to paint on. And I'm very thankful I own two Rackmaster ovens. I love them dearly. I would not be able to do my job without them. And I am just, I'm excited for you all to hear just how incredible this man is and what an important part of our baking community he is. So without further ado, the interview with Campbell McFarland. I'm Allison White, and this is Saving Bread. There we go. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER_01I can hear you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, there we go. I got you now. Fantastic. Okay. We did it. Um hi. Hi, Alison. Finally got it worked out. I am not a tech person. You're not a tech person. Definitely not. Definitely not. It's a bad combo, but a great team for baking.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I'm gonna put do not disturb on my phone so that we don't get disturbed. Okay, so let's get right into it because I know you're super busy. You're building ovens, you're building tables, you're changing the world. So can you tell us what came first? The baker or the oven maker?
SPEAKER_01But was baker first. Uh back 2014, we did a lot of work on the house, and we moved out into caravans, and my wife bought a book, and there's a section in it on sourdough, and that got my attention. And all I wanted to do was bake bread when I got back in the house. And uh Rackmaster, we used to go around all the bakeries, and there was a baker that gave me some starter, and that's where it all started from.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01And basically never never stopped since all I wanted to do. Well, whenever I got success, all I wanted to do was bake more and more and more.
SPEAKER_00Again, that's right. And what were you baking in? When did you realize you know what? I I might want to build my own oven. How did that happen?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I think like everybody, you have a Dutch oven, and then that gets too slow. So I bought a Rothko B40, and it was a massive learn learning curve. There was no real handbook. There were l lots of bakers out there with them, but it was I don't know, the the information wasn't out there how to bake in a in a Rothko, and you kinda had to apply your ingenuity to it. I mean that the you had to a preheat, you'd load the oven, switch it off because it was that fierce of heat, you'd end up rugby balls. Right. Then you turned it back on after twenty minutes, and at twenty-five minutes you swapped the top for the bottom, and then he pressed so you usually had bread. But the actual the actual engineering of the oven was pretty I don't I don't want to decry it because it started a lot of things and it they're still going and they do but it could have been better. The seal round the door could have been better.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I looked at it to I made mine much better, but it was a lot of work and a lot of hassle. And then we got busy at work again and uh uh it got pushed to one side.
SPEAKER_00The oven.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the oven. But then then we spoke about doing our own oven at work and we would get a spell where it wasn't so busy, and we would spend time on it, get it up to a certain stage, then all of a sudden normal work would go crazy and you'd have to leave it, and it could be three or four months before you got back to it again. I see. Yeah, and then lockdown came down, and then we had all the time in the world to develop it further.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01And pretty much the rest is history.
SPEAKER_00That's great. And when you were building this oven, you were thinking about how to improve the baking experience that you were having with your Rothko, and maybe many other of us were having with our Rothco's. I did have that oven. Who did you you were mostly thinking about yourself, but who just because of your passion for baking, but who were you hoping would purchase this oven, use this oven? I mean, you've become a staple in the cottage baking industry and such an important piece of the puzzle for this this um this bread movement. Who were you thinking about when you were making this oven and what were your intentions?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I I just wanted it to be uh a good oven, engineered as best it could, uh, and at a price that was affordable. I mean, anybody that wanted to bake bread at home or had premises or had the same bug because I think it is a bug. Everybody gets hooked on sourdough. I don't care who you know I don't know, you you just get hooked. You become a uh disciple.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think what I really appreciate about my Rackmaster, I have two of them now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think of it kind of like there's people who go to school and they get trained for fine art, right? And they become artists and their paintings are in museums, or people work, people go to culinary school and baking school and they learn how to do these things and they work in these really prestigious bakeries. But there's a bunch of us who didn't do those things, but we still have a vision and we have a passion for it, but we might not have the training or the money to completely be all in, but we still want to bake when we can once a week at home or twice a week. And there was kind of a gap in the market for something like that. And you've closed that gap by providing this oven to us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. But I I find I find in the early days there was a lot, an awful lot of gatekeeping to recipes and procedures, and uh you know, it was the kind of kind of uh uh if I tell you why I do that, I make sure as clever as me. And I just can't be doing with that. I just it just doesn't equate for me. You know, I I'm I freely give anybody my limited knowledge for baking, uh gladly give it to the point where they want me to shut up.
SPEAKER_00You are really generous with your time and your information, and I think that's why many of us who own your ovens feel so connected to you and connected to the process, and we're very thankful for you. So I have I wanted to ask you when someone switches from perhaps they're baking in a Dutch oven and they're ready to buy the rack master oven and switch to open baking, what kinds of changes to their process can they expect when it comes to maybe fermentation, the open baking steam? Because sometimes that transition can be a little bit uncomfortable. So what yeah. So what advice can you give to a baker who's kind of considering that transition or going through it right now so that they feel more successful?
SPEAKER_01Put your ego to one side and get on with it. It's a the oven will always bake better if it's a full load. Uh you know you know you're there there are there are big nuances between a Dutch oven and uh deck oven.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01You could almost put a sawdust and water in a Dutch oven and you would end up with a a beautiful ear and maybe not very tasty, but you would end up with something. But when you move on to uh a Rackmaster, you your dough needs to be good. Unless the dough is good, it don't magically turn into something great.
SPEAKER_00That's right. The oven isn't a magical place that can hide all of our sins. And I think what helped me, it it actually I think it humbled me, as you said, put my ego aside as a baker, because if there are issues with your fermentation, if there are issues with your shaping, yeah, um, your hydration, those issues cannot hide in an open bake, whether it's a rack master or any other oven for that matter. Um what about steam?
SPEAKER_01Steam, steam, the the rack master has a fully welded chamber. And so that means there's no seepage out the sides, back, bottom, top.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01A rubber seal round the door which has four corners which bleed ever such a little bit of steam. Yeah. And round the glass, the steam comes past there as well. Probably the biggest phone call I get is I've got steam coming out of the ovens. Yeah, you need to release some steam somewhere. You can't hold it all. Right, right. If you did hold it all, then it would push past the seal and you'd have a leak that you didn't want. And that's basically steaming. You you we're actually working on uh a pod that you fit to the bottom right side of the deck to create steam, and it's working very, very well. I'm in the final stages of getting this right. There are there are a few out there, a few people out there with them, and I'm getting positive feedback.
SPEAKER_00I what I love about the rackmaster is that the steam is an option that I can put in or not, and I can choose how much I need. I rarely need much at all if the oven is full. By the fifth minute into my bake, the bread is starting to open up at the score line and the bread is steaming itself. I just need enough for that first five minutes. Yeah. So I like the idea of having just a small little chamber on the side where you could pour a little bit of water to have.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, the amount amount of water I'm adding is I think 500 milliliters will probably produce seven or eight bakes.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01It's it's it's next to nothing.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And it's just much easier. I mean, there are other ovens out there with steam generation, but I don't uh if I w if I was to have an integrated steam system, it would have to be a water connection.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And a button you pressed. But if you've got particularly hard water area, you know, you've got all the issues that come with that.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a great solution because it keeps it separate and it's a choice that you can add or not add.
SPEAKER_01Like you said, I've done back-to-back bakes without adding any steam and not adding issues with it.
SPEAKER_00It's because you're a pro. So um uh let's expand on the rack master a bit. Are people baking more than just bread in there? Like, what are some of the things that you've seen other people bake, and maybe were surprised to see people bake in there? Like you didn't even realize that that could be done.
SPEAKER_01I I've seen people do roast dinners in it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh roasting vegetables on the on the residual roasting vegetables overnight on the residual heat from after you've switched it off.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh brownies, croissants, cakes. There's a lady in Northampton, uh, she does full RM2020 cakes. So she has three three focaccia trees, and she does it full of cake, then takes them out and cuts them up. And it's incredible. It's incredible. She's uh yeah, the there's uh you know, I've seen people do baclava in it.
SPEAKER_00Um, okay.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's you know, I I don't I don't think yeah, I can't think of anything outlandish. Not not food related, but yes. Yeah, pizzas, maybe there's a lady there's a lady on uh Isle of Harris, and she uses uh one of her ovens to sterilise her bottles.
SPEAKER_00Oh for that is outlandish.
SPEAKER_01For any I'll you'll phone me now and tell me off. But yeah, she she she does some uh drinks or other, and she uses she uses the to sterilize the bottles before she uses them.
SPEAKER_00That's great. She wins the award for most creative up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I personally love seeing how many small bakeries and cottage bakers have been able to produce brick and mortar quality bread because of your ovens. Is there a particular story of a baker whose journey was completely changed because they finally had access to the right equipment? Like maybe there's been a really remote area where you've delivered an oven or something like that.
SPEAKER_01There's lots of lots of remote ovens. I mean, there's uh there's one right up in a place called Fort Renard. It's about 700 miles north of here. Uh she's called the Pete Bog Baker, and she uh just yeah, she's moved from her garden shed to a bakery in the high street in a local town. Wow when I delivered that up and we actually she's so remote we couldn't get her we couldn't get the van down into her premises. So we stopped on the main road passing her house and transferred it in a smaller van down to her house. And we were there an hour and a half and nobody come by wanting we blocked the road, we nobody come by wanting to to go past the road. That's how long we blocked the road for. Crazy.
SPEAKER_00That is crazy. That's really special though. I feel I I wonder if you could maybe I don't know if you have this, but have I think you do, a map of all the places where people have your ovens. I would love to post something like that afterwards.
SPEAKER_01We staffed it. Uh the the lady in Northampton, Alice, she actually was doing it and pretty good, but we sort of got overwhelmed with order and it kind of took a back seat.
SPEAKER_00I bet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's yeah, it'd be nice to revisit that again.
SPEAKER_00That would be fun to see how how big of a reach you've had in the in the baking community because I mean they're all over the world at this point, and that's incredible.
SPEAKER_01I actually don't think we're far off more ovens in North America than the rest of the world now.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm gonna guess we're somewhere near two to two thousand three hundred ovens worldwide. Incredible. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Before I ask you my next question, I want to circle back on one thing about how many different things you can bake in this oven. Because I think when someone decides to make the leap to um a cottage oven, they might be fearful of oh gosh, that's a lot of money to spend all at once. But when you hear all of the things that you can make in this oven, I personally have two of them and I was able to make my money back quickly because of how many different things I could make in it and how many things I could make at once. This will lead me into my next question. Um, and my next thing that I wanted to talk to you about. I have a lot of your other pieces of equipment which have helped me scale, you know, the focaccia trees, which I make focaccia and my cinnamon rolls in and my bench knives and all these wonderful things that you make. So, in case our listeners don't know, you make a lot of other things that kind of go with the oven and maybe some that are more useful on the bench. But can you tell us about some of the other products that you make and maybe your tables and other things you're working on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we will do a lot of bespoke shaping tables. Uh Beach Oak Aroco. The one I use in my Instagram videos is is well, I I love it. It's it's just beautiful. I don't know how many of them we've made, but they're it must be in the thousands. Oh wow, so the the person that I order the cops from has me on speed dial, so yeah, we've got a good customer. So we're a good customer there, and then usually pull the a rabbit out of the hat when it needs to be.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Uh then we've got the English muffin sets, which are massive in America.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01We we can't make enough of them, I'll be honest. I don't know, for catch your trays, I should say, the donut, the bread tins, bread tins, we are the tins. We we're yeah. The last the last container we did for America, we couldn't get all the boxes in it that were ordered.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I bet.
SPEAKER_01Bread tins. There was loads and loads and loads. But yeah, let's see. But I think we're in container number Hannah would know, but probably in container number 25 now.
SPEAKER_00So if our listeners wanted to check out the oven, look at all of these other wonderful pieces of equipment you make, they can see those through Pleasant Hill Grain if they live in the United States, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're only available through Pleasant Hill Grain in North America. North America, obviously everywhere else in the world, our website www.racmaster.co.uk.
SPEAKER_00Great. Fantastic. And there's also WhatsApp groups for different yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's a WhatsApp group for UK, Europe, and Africa, which has four hundred and twenty odd member. Some some people don't interact.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh some people overinteract. Uh not gonna name anybody, but yeah, yeah. It has its a what do you call it? Uh personalities.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, it's it's all very, very, very good. It's all good hearted.
SPEAKER_00I can go to the WhatsApp group and immediately someone will respond at any hour of any day.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And if it's if not you, which often it is you responding immediately, someone else in the group who is going through something similar or helping someone new who just got the oven. Everyone is helping everyone else. And it's always positive. Everyone is always kind and respectful. And it's truly a group of people who want everyone else to see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's no I mean, I I'm a member on there. Everybody that has an oven uh either has mine. mobile number or has access to my mobile number I may message somebody from the group direct to them for different things, but there's no as as I said earlier, there's no gatekeeping, there's no moderators, there's no removal of negative posts or anything like that. It's all wait, I'm just I'm just another member. I don't think I'm even uh I know I'm I know I'm not an administrator on the UK group uh for sure but uh I think I am an American one but I wouldn't know how to add any add somebody anyway.
SPEAKER_00Me neither it's a great it's a great group to be a part of it yeah yeah okay we're gonna move on to my rapid wire questions are you ready?
SPEAKER_01Okay what is your favorite bread a good well baked country loaf okay uh it doesn't have to be particularly high hydration I just want I'm just looking for a tasteful loaf yes taste taste prompts everything of course looks I mean tight taste then colour yes well I can't stand the blonde bakes yeah uh uh you know I think somebody some people bake their bread in uh retard approved I'm not sure but yeah or or you appreciate contrast between the crust and the crumb or the or they forgot to put turn the elements on and it's baked by the light of the oven.
SPEAKER_00Yes I am the same. What do you think is the most important quality in a baker?
SPEAKER_01Humility skills fearing caring and helping I think that's it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah we we all I mean I I baked at the weekend and I had a disaster bake so hey yeah it's gonna happen it's gonna humble you one day that's for sure absolutely we all have those days where we're just like dang it yeah yeah that's right what is your favorite Instagram account to follow what do you want it was simple one this one it was Wayne Caddy.
SPEAKER_01Wayne Caddy Wayne Caddy without a shadow of a doubt great guy great guy personal friend great guy uh yeah he's he's on on my bake weekend I think he maybe thinks god I'm gonna put my phone on a mute because he does get calls from me but he's a great lad great breaker great lad he's got such a skill for teaching he meets who whatever your skill level he meets you at your skill level whether you're a seasoned pro or an absolute beginner he he's there and and he's so uh enthusiastic about what he does and how he does it that it's it's it's infectious it's infectious he's a a good guy good guy he is okay my last quickie question for you and then we'll we'll ask my closing questions tell our listeners what is underburnt because I feel like we need shirts made at this point. Underburnt is a is a a prey on words basically uh when I say a light uh a light loaf it's a bit underburnt yeah we need more more fire you mean more you mean longer longer in the oven uh sorry I mean I know people get a hard time when they go to markets to sell stuff if it's dark if it's too dark they're left on the shelf i I would be going straight for that one every single time it's where all the flavour is uh I mean in Scotland you have a what they call a mortar morning roll and it is black on the top but it has so much flavour yeah it's flavour on overload and yeah it is it must be a Scottish thing because I I love it I I love the I'd eat the crust all day long and leave the middle.
SPEAKER_00Yes and you've inspired all of us to bake darker I think yeah yeah okay so let's finish out this wonderful chit chat in your own way and from your perspective how do you think you're helping save bread not just here where I live but all over the world everywhere where someone has a rack master how are you helping save bread giving people the tools to do the job properly if somebody has the want to be red they will and if you can help them that's it you're just you're just helping people helping people and and you're preserving the craft sharing your knowledge yeah stuff stuff like that really I agree and when someone buys one of your ovens what do you think they're buying into what is your vision along the whole nine yards everything.
SPEAKER_01I want them to become the best bakers they possibly can be and I will help them in every single way that I can at any given time. I'm on the UK group so my hours are pretty much aligned with the UK group. America depending where you have sort of five to eight hours different but not I mean you know I I can I'll answer anytime I pick the phone up and I see there's something to see there's something to say. But I won't take my phone up to I don't charge my phone at the bedside.
SPEAKER_00It stays downstairs that that that when I'm sleeping that's it I'm not there 247 but probably 18 seven eighteen eighteen to the 24 yeah yeah I really feel that from you I feel like I'm part of a family of the people the bakers who own this oven I feel extremely supported by you and everyone else who has one and it really does feel like a movement. I mean I've never been part of another group so I can't speak to that but it does feel like we are very aligned in our goals of wanting to preserve this craft and all contributing in the best way that we know how. And you know how to make wonderful equipment for making and baking bread and you've given us this gift um of of your appliances and your ovens so that all of us have the ability and the access to to keep this going and to create yeah yeah I mean there was a there was a lady come on the UK group the other day and she says you know what I'm part of lots of groups but this this one group I feel is the best one ever and I contribute to it probably 10 times as much as I do to any other groups I'm on. I love that I feel proud to have two rack master ovens now and basically anything that you have made besides a table because that's not reasonable that I lived so far I own and I use and I absolutely love. So I I can't thank you enough for thank you the hard work that you've done and also for taking the time to chat with me today. I know you're so busy.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually loading up an oven and I'm going to France tomorrow with one I believe it I I am I I actually am it's it's it's a 1700 mile round trip and she has two ovens already and the third she wants a third oven and she wants me to do a once over she wants me to do a refresh on the other two ovens. Great so yeah I'm happy for you watch this space I enjoy that part of it so much.
SPEAKER_00I know getting out and seeing people and meeting people and just interacting I can tell I can tell when you post about it and you share it in the group how happy you are and there's so much joy there. How can we how can our listeners support you? Where can they follow you?
SPEAKER_01What can they do to make it Instagram sound sounds like a ro uh a bot account but it's Campbell2664 it is the only account it's the only social media I have I don't have Facebook. Uh yeah that that's it basically great and we can shop at Rackmaster if you're outside of America you can shop rackmaster.co dot uk if you're in North America everything's available through Pleasant Hill Green. Great so yeah when when it's in stock because it does out of stock pretty quick.
SPEAKER_00Plan a year ahead yeah all right Campbell this was awesome you're so great I'm so thankful to know you and be friends with you and to own your ovens very proud to be part of this family.
SPEAKER_01You're welcome thank you very good we'll chat very soon.
SPEAKER_00Okay thank you okay good luck with your drive be safe bye bye goodbye again a special thank you to Campbell for taking time out of your extremely busy schedule I know we had to reschedule that interview a couple of times because we're balancing baking and making ovens and traveling and all of the things but I really appreciate the fact that you took time out of your schedule to meet on a Zoom and chit chat with me about all things bread and the wonderful work that you're doing I'm really looking forward to purchasing my steampot probably two of them for my two Rack Master ovens and I'm looking forward to trying them out and using them and having that addition to my process. Thank you to everyone who tuned in today for listening and supporting if you could just share the Saving Bread podcast with a few of your baker friends or foodie friends and continue to spread the word it would just it would mean so much to us. So um on that note that's it and we will catch you at the next episode thank you for listening to the Saving Bread podcast music by Joshua from Dope I'm Allie White and as always happy baking and long live Riola Bread