Saving Bread
Saving Bread explores sourdough, grain, fermentation, craftsmanship, and the people keeping real bread alive. Join baker and educator Allison White for practical lessons and thoughtful conversations with bakers, millers, farmers, oven makers, and others shaping the future of bread.
Long live real bread.
Saving Bread
Rabbit Hole E02 Pineapple Sourdough Starters, Beloved’s Bakery & Meaningful Inclusions
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Ally and Leah are back down the Rabbit Hole for a casual conversation about sourdough experiments, bakery field trips, and the stories we tell through bread.
Inspired by Sourdough Culture by Eric Pallant, Leah creates a sourdough starter from scratch for the first time—funky smells, mysterious liquid, daily feedings and all. Meanwhile, Ally compares a traditional flour-and-water starter with one made using pineapple juice. They discuss false rises, acidity, starter pH, unpleasant early-stage bacteria and whether the pineapple juice method actually makes creating a starter easier.
Then they recap their visit to Beloved’s Bakery & Café in Reno, Nevada, where they sampled sourdough bread, bialys, pretzels and an impressive assortment of laminated pastries.
Finally, they go deep on inclusions in bread. Are jalapeño cheddar and cranberry walnut loaves simply delicious products that customers love—or can inclusions become something more? Ally and Leah explore how local, seasonal and culturally meaningful ingredients can help bakers differentiate their work, celebrate their communities and turn a loaf of bread into a story.
This episode is an invitation to experiment, stay curious and consider not only what goes into your bread, but why it belongs there.
LINKS & MENTIONS
Sourdough Culture by Eric Pallant
https://www.ericpallant.com/book/sourdough-culture/
Debra Wink’s Pineapple Juice Solution — Part One
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
Debra Wink’s Pineapple Juice Solution — Part Two
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
Kathryn Shields — Amore Fermentum
Instagram: @amore_fermentum
https://www.instagram.com/amore_fermentum/
Laila — The Early Rise
Instagram: @theearlyrisebaker
https://www.instagram.com/theearlyrisebaker/
Alexandra Allen — Wild Woman Bakery
Instagram: @wildwomanbakery
https://www.instagram.com/wildwomanbakery/
Beloved’s Bakery & Café
299 E Plumb Lane, Suite 129
Reno, Nevada
https://www.belovedsbread.com/
Instagram: @belovedsbread
https://www.instagram.com/belovedsbread/
Love, Yvonne Cakes
Instagram: @love.yvonne
https://www.instagram.com/_love.yvonne_/
Graison Gill
Instagram: @graisongill
https://www.instagram.com/graisongill/
Sarah Owens
Instagram: @sarah_c_owens
https://www.instagram.com/sarah_c_owens/
Music by Joshua from DOPE.
Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast. Today is a rabbit hole episode. So for our rabbit hole episodes, we have myself and we also have Leah here. So today's episode will be kind of just a casual chit-chat. And we will talk about making our own starter. We will talk about a bakery that we just went and visited recently, and we are going to talk about inclusions in bread. I'm Allie White. And I'm Leah Smith. And this is Saving Bread. We have a couple things to talk about. We just took a trip together. We have all the things going on. So let's start with how we're reading sourdough culture and how that inspired us to start our own sourdough culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so number one, the book is super fascinating. I did not, there's just so much information in there and so many facts. I was really, really surprised on the depth of the author of how far back he went to talk about sourdough and then the evolution of bread in general from being something, and I think you've mentioned this before, something that everybody knew how to make. You had to know how to make it. People survived off of bread. That was their main source of food, right? Yeah. To then transitioning that into a more commercialized bread, right? Something that was cheaper, that was easier, faster to make, less labor intensive, et cetera. So that was really cool. But as part of that, in our last, who knows if it was a rabbit hole or if it was just the extended cut of one of our conversations, but you and I talked about starter. And that book had a recipe on how to create your own starter. And so I did that. As you know, I am not a sourdough baker. So this was the first, not the first time that I've dealt with starter before, because I think I've in your classes, I received starter from you that I ended up having to feed. But I didn't ever create it myself. Maybe I had, maybe I hadn't, I don't remember. But anyway, I started that, and that was a very interesting experiment for me to do from start to end, taking the instructions directly from the book.
SPEAKER_01Okay, cool. So right now we have Sourdough Culture as our book club book. I know a lot of listeners are reading it, and Eric, I have an interview with him coming up on Wednesday, so it'll probably come out in about a month. And like you said, there's an instructional page on how to make your own starter. And so you went ahead and you did that. So let's hear about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you and I had talked beforehand about me creating a starter and making it be uh whatever's available to everybody, right? So not everybody necessarily has freshly milled flour or whole grain flour. So what I ended up using was just basic King Arthur bread flour for 50%, and then the other 50% was all-purpose white flour. So that's what I added into like what he has you do, and I might have to look in the book to look at the instructions exactly, but it's 50% one flour, 50% the other flour, right? So I did 50% white and 50% bread flour, and I put that in with the water that was directed, and then it asked me to mix with my fingers. So with your fingers? I'm yes, it said to mix with my fingers. Yeah, I assume that's again to cultivate additional yeast, right? Or to get that moving along. I used a clean new glass, not new, but a clean glass jar, put everything in there, and then it had me put a paper towel or, you know, a I did a paper towel for that one versus like a cheesecloth or something like that. Yeah. But anyway, paper towel with a rubber band on the top of it, and I left that for the time frame that it asked me to before I had to remove like 80% of it and then continue to feed it in that cycle. In the first four days, you did that. Is it once every single day? I might have to look. And so, anyway, the the first day it was just kind of hanging out, and it built up over that time frame that you do that for the beginning again four days. And it definitely started to obviously create yeast and created the bubbles and started to smell funky.
SPEAKER_01Like it was uh funky define funky, please. I want to know everything about this. Define funky, we need to know.
SPEAKER_00This little gem smelt a little cheesy, yeah. She smelt cheesy, you know? Um, like a ripe, delicious, maybe not delicious cheese, you know, like that you would maybe smell initially and think, ew. But then when you take a cheaper, can I ask you?
SPEAKER_01Can I ask you, did this interesting smell if you didn't know that was supposed to happen, or if you hadn't had this outline, would you have been like, oh no, I did something wrong, and then like throw it out, or were you expecting it to smell a little bit cheesy and then you just decided to power through?
SPEAKER_00Because I have been cooking for a long time in general, like the fermentation process, it wouldn't surprise me that it smelled cheesy and that that was okay because there were no other signs of mold, which is different. It looked sure again, it looked like what you normally see for a starter, but there is an odor, and if you're not to your point aware of that odor, you could think that it has gone bad very quickly because it smells like again a a cheese or maybe sour milk, or you know what I mean? Like it yeah, so yeah, you might think maybe not.
SPEAKER_01It's good for the people to know because yeah, if they do this, they need to know that there is going to be a time of smells. Of smells, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00It was and it was I mean, it was a smell too that went into the kitchen. It wasn't just great in its own area, like you could smell it coming into the kitchen.
SPEAKER_01She was like, I'm here, I'm fermenting, pay attention to me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I will say that that was, you know, uh with the help of my fingers. Mixing the god. So anyway. Oh lord. Day one, you put everything together. Um, again, you place the and I'm reading this from the book, you place the bowl in a warm location out of direct sunlight for three days. Oh, I'm sorry, for three days until the bubbles form on the top of the mixture and it puffs. So I did that. Day three, you remove the covering, you discard about 80%, and then you begin to feed it. And then you do that for four to ten days. Um, you do that same thing over and over again, and then mine started to actually rise and fall towards the end of that like actual 10 days. So, anyway, he does mention that from day four to day 10, there will be bubbles of carbon monoxide visible through the throughout the starter on the surface and a black liquid called hooch. I didn't really get hooch. I think you came over and looked at it, and I did have a decent maybe water on the bottom. So that was the one thing that you suggested is like you can also mix it if you see that water, but that was the only thing. I actually didn't get hooch on mine until I fermented it or I put it into the fridge to then sit while we went on a trip. And then I came home and there is hooch on it.
SPEAKER_01Cool. Um, great job, great follow-through. I'm very impressed by you because I would like to tell you about my experience trying to make a starter, which was completely the opposite of your experience because I gave up. So, first of all, thank you for doing that, and I'm really excited to talk to Eric about that when he's on because that'll be a fun, a fun topic. But I, my job that I was given that I did it, I didn't really do that well of was to make a starter with pineapple juice because that is trending right now. People are making, and please forgive me, I am recovering from laryngitis, so my voice is holding on by a thread. The people who I have seen post about it most recently are a Catherine from Amore Fermentum and I hope I'm saying that right, and then Lila from the Early Rise. I know that Alex from Wild Woman has done it, and then they source like original sources, and I believe there's a woman named Paula. I can't remember her last name right now, uh, but I will look it up during our chat. It's Paula Pineapple Starter, I'm sure something will pop up. But anyway, um, so basically what you're supposed to do is instead of using water, you're supposed to use pineapple juice. So Catherine from Amore Fermentum on Instagram, she has a whole guide on it. So I followed her guide and I decided to make a starter that way. Yeah, Catherine Shield, Amore Fermentum, and on the top of her highlights, she has a little highlight called pineapple starter. So I followed that, and then I was thinking, you know, I can do that, but I don't have a control. So I did the pineapple starter and then I did a water starter side by side so I could compare them. And I also took the pH of them just because I was interested. And I will say my one that was made with water had the same smells that yours had as well. It was unpleasant. It was like gym socks, and I was like, oh no. And then the pineapple one never had a bad smell from day one, and I would say that the behavior of the two was very different as well. So I kind of wanted to go into that and talk about maybe the science behind that a little bit. Is it did you find her on Instagram? So the original person that should be credited for the pineapple starter, her name is she is a baker and a microbiologist. Her name is Deborah Wink, and she used unsweetened pineapple juice instead of water for the first three days. On here, it says the juice lowers the pH, creating an acidic environment that suppresses foul-smelling bad bacteria while allowing good wild yeast to thrive. And so that was the difference. So the pineapple one, because the pineapple is acidic, right? The pineapple juice is literally acidic, you're already starting at a much lower pH than you would if you were just using water. When you mix flour and water together, the pH tends to be around 5.6 at the beginning. And then as fermentation goes along, it tends to drop. But this is making a starter from scratch. So the pH is likely going to be somewhere between 5.5 and 6.0. When you have pineapple juice and you mix it with flour, the pH is much lower, like 4.5. So by lowering the pH, you are not allowing the foul-smelling bacteria that are naturally in the flower to reproduce, grow, make these smells. You've you're suppressing them. And so I would argue that the two starters aren't really that much different. You're just suppressing the activity of some of the bacteria. Whereas the one that I mixed with the flour and water, what happened was I got, and you probably did too, I got a false rise. So in the first like 24, 48 hours, it grew a lot. And um, that happened because those bacteria that live at a higher pH were thriving and they were creating gases and they were growing. But eventually, once the pH starts to lower as the starter becomes more mature, those bacteria will no longer be able to survive. And so the true bacteria of a sourdough, starter sourdough culture, they live at a lower pH. And so those are the ones that will begin to thrive and multiply, but you have to kind of like kill off and suppress them, or I guess suppress is a better term, suppress them over time in the water one versus the pineapple one is immediate because the pH is already lower because of the acidic pineapple juice. Does that make sense? Am I saying that in a way that makes sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, absolutely. It does make sense. Um, I mean, I have some follow-up questions for that, as I mean, I guess my question is does it matter?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it was a much more pleasant experience, and I am not the person who came up with this. I am not a person who's done it many times. I'm just a gal who tried it one time and I have my own opinions. If you if anyone wants to really deep dive, I would go to the original source and check out um Deborah Wink or check out um Catherine's page because those people have really spent a lot more time and care on it. From my perspective, I would say it was a more pleasant experience using the pineapple juice, just because I didn't have to deal with the smells that you're talking about. And in the end, they were both very similar. I will also say on day four, I was like, I'm over this, I'm wasting so much flour, like feeding these little starters, and I'm a busy girl and I don't have time. So I I would just prefer to like get a starter from someone that I know and trust. But if you, if you listeners out there are like really committed, like and well behaved like Leah, and do the job, do it from scratch because it I'm sure it's like a fun way to learn something new. Um but I will say those first three days with the pineapple were much better smelling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, it it makes sense. I guess another question that I have, right, is as you try to suppress the the bad bacteria or the other bacteria to get to the good bacteria. Is there a difference in time then? Like for the the regular flour and water? I I don't know. Like, is that why you try to do that?
SPEAKER_01On days on Catherine's page, she said that she's able to get it up to strength in four. And I know that she's using a really high protein strong white flour when she makes hers, and she even baked a loaf of bread, I think, on day four, if I'm not mistaken. Okay. Um, both of us used some with whole wheat flour, so that could be more active and and behave differently. Um I will also say that people had a lot of feelings about it that they they needed to express, which I totally appreciate. Um, some people did not like the pineapple starter idea. Catherine reached out to me and said that she's also had people who are very upset by it. I'm not sure what this like pineapple juice is um provoking in people, but they don't polarizing, huh?
SPEAKER_00It's polarizing.
SPEAKER_01It is you're either team pineapple or team water, apparently. I'm neutral. I I will say that the pineapple will smelt better, so that was nice, but I have no skin in the game.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know if it would make a difference to me. I think the only difference that would matter to me is is it more or less complicated? Even the smell, I mean, I but I cook, I I I eat different kinds of foods, I have kimchi in my fridge. Like that, those things are all like not really that big of a deal to me personally.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But if you personally didn't like those kinds of smells and they bothered you, then I yeah, then that would be a recommendation if they're one for one.
SPEAKER_01I am really team um will it bread. Meaning I don't think anything is better than another. I don't think it's ever a good idea to say this is the only way. And it's just a different way. And uh both Catherine and um Lila, when they post about it, they just present it as like this is an option, it's not mandatory, uh, which I love because it just it's just an invitation to try something new and something different. Um I tried it, uh and that's it. That's all I have to say about it. You tried it, you did a good job. And I think our listeners can try it too if they want.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I would definitely recommend trying to find somebody who understands this well enough to get those sources and trusted sources because there is a lot of information out there, and I don't think all of it is correct. And I say that, and so if you just Google something, it might not be the best idea to to dive down that you know, Reddit rabbit hole. Rabbit hole, pun intended. Um, but but try to understand like we have the resources here, or reach out to somebody or make sure that they have the the knowledge that backs what they're recommending for you to do or in the instructions that they're providing.
SPEAKER_01I've never made a post about making your own sourdough starter because I don't know that much about it, and I'm not gonna pretend like I do. Okay, so we went to South Lake Tahoe together for 4th of July for my birthday. It was a good time. It was super fun. It wasn't. Went down the Truckee River. Yes. We swam. We ate cake. Shout out, Love Yvonne.
SPEAKER_00Oh, what a fantastic guava cake that was, and just beautiful.
unknownAbsolutely.
SPEAKER_01Leah ordered me, yes, Leah ordered me, I'll post a picture of it on the in the stories. It's she ordered me this amazing guava cake from a local baker, Love Yvonne, and it was one of the best cakes I've ever had. And Leah put these little babies on top. What are what are those called? The um the little naked babies.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's sunny. Yeah, sunny. That's right. The sunny babies. Um, yes, we did that for cake decorations. Yeah. Uh although Love Yvonne has a beautiful cake decoration, but you know, we had to have two big numbers of the candles and two big babies of dress as a plant and an animal, obviously.
SPEAKER_01100%. Um, yeah, I will definitely post that because it was it was great and it was really good. And we ate it for like three days. It's fantastic. Okay, so our in addition to eating cake, we also went to my friend's bakery up in Reno. So we'd spent a day up in Reno and we checked out some local thrift shops. Um, and we stopped at Beloved's Bakery and Cafe. That's correct. So the the address is 229 East Plum Lane, and it's unit number 129, and that's in Reno, Nevada. And this bakery was created by Zach Condren. I hope that's I'm I hope I'm saying your last name right, Zach. If not, text me and I'm so sorry. Um, I met Zach at a class that I took with Grayson Gill a few years ago, and we didn't get to chat that much in class, but yeah, I had had a couple of people recommend his bakery to me, so we decided to go check it out. So why don't you tell our listeners like some of the things that we tried and what we really liked?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So, for folks who don't know, I lived in Reno for around 12 years. So back in the day, 12 years ago, and to be fair, I haven't been there for another 10 years, so it's been a little bit of time. Uh, but back in the day, there weren't necessarily a lot of great bakeries for fresh food. Reno is a bit of, um, I think Zach also mentioned it, right? It's a bit of a food desert, right? It's just difficult to get fresh food in there. Um, I think the culture is changing to get more fresh locally produced food as well. But a lot of that before was not really that fresh, not that local, a lot of chain restaurants, a lot of casino food, you know, things like that. So it was really, really nice to see a bakery like this in Reno, me coming back into Reno. It's actually a pretty cool section. It looks like they have attached to it a building with a thrift shop, which is junkie. That was around when I was around. And then it looks like they're doing some other things in there, maybe for some more local, um, maybe food, but maybe just local stores, et cetera. So that was awesome. But yeah, we got there. There was already a line out the door. They had tables outside, they had tables inside, and we tried a lot of their pastries. Considering we're traveling, most of the time we end up ordering things that are smaller, easier for us to eat. So a very large selection of things that they had. Uh, but and savory and sweet. So that was really nice because we a lot of times default to savory. So they had some beautiful biales with cheese and onions, poppy seeds on the outside of them. Uh, we didn't order the sandwiches, but they had sandwiches there that were next. Um, and then we started getting into the pastries, right? And so we did order a chocolate croissant. We ordered a morning bun. We had a hazelnut chocolate. It wasn't a croissant, but it was a laminated dough that was folded over again flat. Really good. And we ended up getting a pretzel as well, along with a sourdough bittard, because it was a smaller thing for us. Because again, we're traveling. And then two cappuccinos. And then we had the strawberry little popover. Yeah. Which looked like a cupcake. Yeah. Yep. The strawberry with the rosewater cream, and it looked like a little cupcake, a laminated little cupcake. And so I think that was the variety that we had. A couple of savory items. Again, we weren't trying to get sandwiches, but we did get the pretzel. We got a sourdough petard, um, the biali, and then the rest were the sweet pastries.
SPEAKER_01I regret not getting a sandwich because they look really, really good. And they looked incredible. Zach was really sweet. I wasn't expecting it, but he sat down and chatted for about 20 minutes and just caught up and was telling me a little bit more about some of their plans that they have for the facility. And I believe they are trying to and kind of in the works of getting a grain mill there and starting to produce some of their own flour on site, which is actually incredible considering what you said at the beginning, which is Reno is kind of um bit not been known to have a lot of those types of things currently. So um it's really cool, and I'm excited to see what they do with that. So we chit chatted a little bit about using freshly milled high extraction flour. Um like I said, he took Grayson's class with me, so he's more than more than equipped to to work with that, but it was just a fun conversation to have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's awesome. And anybody who is going to Reno, I don't know how many listeners are going to Reno, but they also had regular food. We didn't, again, we were not able to try that at the time, but they had a whole regular breakfast menu, and it was really big. So you could go in there, you could sit down, you could sit outside, there was plenty of space, so it wasn't a very small bakery where you're just grabbing stuff to go. Sure. You could grab pastries, bread, they had a lot of different bread varieties as well, and you could grab a breakfast if you wanted to to support them in that way as well.
SPEAKER_01Cool. And our last topic for today is going to be something that we got into hard in Tahoe. I can't even remember how this conversation started, but really got me going.
SPEAKER_00That is true. And we wish we were mic'd, folks. Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_01We had no excuse. I had my wireless mics, but it was like once we realized the conversation was incredible, it was too late. We're like, well, we've already been chatting about this for like half an hour. But we were talking about inclusions in bread. So if you don't know what an inclusion is, an inclusion is something that goes in the bread that's not like water, flour, salt starter. So an example would be like if you buy a bread and it has olives in it, or um cranberry walnut, or jalapeno cheddar, or like these things that people put inside of the dough. And then yeah, that's called an inclusion. That's the term for it. And um, I personally don't use inclusions. Um, if I do, it's very rarely I do a garlic one because of of course we're living out in near Gilroy, so garlic grows everywhere here, so it feels like a it makes sense for the space. I'll do like a turmeric leek loaf from Sarah Owens. Um every once in a while I might do one that has cheese and green onion depending on the time of year and the seasonality. But for the most part, I would say that I let the wheat speak for itself. I put all this time and effort and training into using local flour and different types of grain. Like I want you to be able to taste those things. I don't want to cover them up with other flavors. That's just what works for me and um my identity as a baker. But like, let's get into this a little bit because we had a great chat about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think you and I talked about that because a lot of bakeries that I end up going to, or I think that you and I even see everywhere. Like it's not just Reno, it's not just the Bay Area, it's everywhere, right? A lot of bakeries that you go to end up having these loaves with a lot of inclusions in them. They maybe have half of their loaves that are rotating inclusions. And then yeah, what does that mean for the bread? Are you just trying to do flavorful bread right through inclusions? Or do you have really great bread that stands alone and you do that commercially, right? Because again, to me, it's also a commercial thing. These are very large bakeries in most cases or larger bakeries, but even small people too, where a lot of times to get people in the door, it's easy for them to say, like, I would love that walnut cranberry bread because I love walnuts and cranberries in my bread. And that gets them to do their first purchase, right? Of course. But yeah, you know, I think heavily relying on inclusions is unfortunate because that's all you're you're tasting and seeing as part of the bread.
SPEAKER_01I agree. And this is not to speak poorly of any baker out there who's like just trying to get bread out because everyone does it differently, everyone has a different story, everyone's about something different, and like we love that. We love to see what everyone is doing. But it was an interesting conversation and one that I think was really respectful of, well, what is the story, right? Because if we're telling a story with our loaves to our customers, exactly to your point, is the inclusion something local and from the area that you're in? Does it represent your culture? Does it represent a memory from your childhood? Does it represent your mom's favorite dish? I don't know. Maybe it does. And what a wonderful way to tell more about yourself to your customers by having inclusions that speak to your story. So when I well, I'll give you two examples. I think ones that we were talking about. One was um I feel like poor Grayson, he's probably like, Do you need to talk about me on every episode? But yes, I do. You're amazing, and we all love you. Um, he was recently in Japan teaching a class, and I was really curious because I've taken a few classes with him and I've spent time with him now, and he does utilize inclusions, and he's very respectful when he does. I was like, What is he gonna do? I was so curious to see. And I'd have to go back and look specifically, but I'm almost positive that he got some local rice and then maybe made a porridge or toasted it or something like that. And then he also got some local seaweed that someone was drying and put that into some of the bread, and it was just so thoughtful and was so beautiful, and it it just watching him work with the other bakers in the area and celebrating these ingredients and putting them thoughtfully into the bread, it was it made me emotional to see it because I I was so inspired by it. Um so that's just like one small example, and then another thing that I usually bring up in my classes is the jalapeno cheddar breads, which is what we talked about. Jalapeno cheddar, and I used to make them too when I first started, because as you said, sometimes you just need to get people in the door and people like it. I'm not saying like abandon the jalapeno cheddar loaf, but what I am saying is is there a way to make it more interesting? Are you pickling the jalapenos? Are you buying them from someone who grows them and pickles them and being able to support a local farmer who's growing peppers in your community? Being able to support someone who specializes in pickling? Maybe there's a local farm and they're making a smoked cheese, right? Or they're they're having pasture cows and they do something interesting, right? Are there ways that we can continue to not only tell our story, but highlight the other people doing the work in our area through our loaf and have it be like a love letter from our community? I think that is really an interesting path to go down. And can you kind of give your perspective to us as because I know you're not you're not really like a sourdough baker, but you're definitely a consumer and a customer, and I'd just love to hear what you think about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think what I gravitate towards now is something and we've had this conversation as I break open bread. So again, I am not a bread maker. I have not taken a single one of Allie's bread classes. I have taken her other classes for other things, right? But not a sourdough bread class. But now with the education, obviously being friends with Allie, but you know, seeing her Instagram, looking at other people's pages through this journey, and also just eating the bread, right? It's so interesting to me now that I can cut open a loaf of bread and immediately go, mm, it's not it. Or I open it up and I taste it and I go, there's nothing here for flavor. And so I think for me as a more educated consumer now, is if if I want to see inclusions, I want to see inclusions that are yeah, more interesting. Like, what are you doing that is different from the jalapeno cheddar? And then, like, how are you presenting that to me? Is it like you said, is it your own homemade pickled jalapenos or is somebody else doing that? Is a different cheese than just the cheddar cheese that you bought from Kraft that you're throwing in there? And again, I it's not a shame on anybody who does that regularly. I totally understand and I totally get it. But me as an evolving consumer of bread, of bread that is of a much higher quality than I would get now at Whole Foods or anywhere else, I want to see something that is really delicious, but also not the same thing that I'm going to get from Safeway. I want it to be interesting. I want it to taste different, and I want the bread to shine alongside the inclusions. I want them to be a relationship that I get to enjoy both, not one or the other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's really thoughtful and I think that's really fair. And don't get me wrong. I mean, I get asked about jalapeno cheddarloaves all the time. I could make them and they would sell like hotcakes, and that's awesome. I mean, truly, it's like I know that people like them and I can make them. It there's no issue with me. I can easily I think for ease, what people do is they make one mother dough. Although this is kind of a misuse of that term in my opinion, but they make one big dough and they break it up into several different bins and they put different inclusions in each bin, and like for ease and for production, like, yeah, go off. Um but I I guess I like the challenge of how can I how can I make this a little bit more unique? Because a question that I get often is well, I've got six other bakers in town, and I've got two other bakers at the farmer's market, and we're all making, you know, country dough. Like we're all making country loaves. Like, how do I differentiate myself? That's how you find that special, that special jalapeno, that special cheddar, and you put it in your loaf because then it's gonna be different than the person who's doing the jalapeno cheddar loaves down the street. And truly, I think a lot of people are coming to this space to learn how to work with more fresh flour. And if you're going through the effort to do that, why hide the flavor behind anything else? And, you know, maybe have both. Have a local whole wheat loaf and then, you know, keep the jalapeno cheddar, but consider having different options for different customers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And you and I talked about that, right? Again, there is a commercial aspect to it to you needing to sell bread, right? That's what you're doing. You want to sell out, you want no extras, right? You don't want any loss. So I completely get it that there is a commercial aspect to it of this is what the consumers want. But yeah, I agree that I think it can be more thoughtful in the way that that happens. And I think those people eventually will see the bread for what it is, and then maybe not rely on inclusions anymore.
SPEAKER_01I think that makes a lot of sense. Sometimes I I do buy bread with inclusions here and there, just depending on you know what I'm pick up in the market or whatever. And then sometimes I feel like, oh, I can't make I can't put peanut butter on it for my daughter because it's got green onions in it. Yeah, you know, or it's olives. Yeah, or it's like I got this something else and now it doesn't go with me or whatever. So sometimes that can be a challenge. And then so if it's just the plain loaf, you can just use it for whatever. But yeah, I I think it would, it's a call to action to not make any changes to what you're doing now. Like go hard, sell those loaves, sell the inclusions, like make your money. But in the background, maybe it there is something that you're thinking of right now, and it's sparking an idea of like, oh, I forgot there's someone down the street who makes sun-dried tomatoes, or I forgot that there was a farmer selling local pecans that I could roast and put in my bread. Like, start to think in that way, and I think you'll be surprised at how much more connected you feel with your product and with your customers and your community if you open up your mind to um different ideas about inclusions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's it. That was the inclusion conversation. It was very interesting, it was a very natural conversation when we were together, and I appreciate the I think the balance perspective between the two of us. I mean, we are pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01The coolest. And we've had we've I don't think that the you know, not everyone's gonna listen to the rabbit hole episodes, and that's fine. I'm a person that likes to consume content of people just chit-chatting, especially when on my bake days, like I listen to different podcasts of people just having conversations with each other. It helps me, you know, sort out my thoughts and be inspired. And so the people who have listened to our rabbit hole episodes and the two of us chatting, they really love having you on the podcast and they love hearing your voice. And um, so I think it's just like a fun thing to offer for everyone who wants a little extra. And Leah is um just the voice of reason and committed and has great ideas, and it does a good job also representing like the new baker, right? Because that's an important voice to have.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. As we continue on, I will try, folks, I promise, to bake with Ali a little bit more and provide that feedback loop back to people here because I do think it's important. Um, I am, to be completely honest, absolutely terrified of sourdough. So I think it would be great for other listeners to figure out that balance and to understand the struggle from a beginner baker. Um so I hope I can provide that.
SPEAKER_01I have the perfect podcast for you. Oh my gosh, really? It's called Saving Bread. They're for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're gonna leave it. I know. So yeah, um, hopefully I can bring those experiences, experiences along with Allie and I just having great conversations about bread and where we go and where we eat and what we do, all the things.
SPEAKER_01All right, well, that's it for this rabbit hole episode, and we we've got the interview with Eric coming up, so that'll be exciting.
SPEAKER_00Very exciting. Um, great book. So hopefully everybody finished up.
SPEAKER_01I know a lot of people are reading it, so it's pretty cool. And that was all you agree. That was all Leah. She thought of the book club. She is so smart.
SPEAKER_00That's true.
SPEAKER_01Looks and brains on this girl.
SPEAKER_00All right, I'm gonna stop the recording for us.
SPEAKER_01No, keep going.
SPEAKER_00Do we need recommendations of new books?
SPEAKER_01I got a few.
unknownCool.
SPEAKER_01Got a few came in. Yeah.
unknownCool.
SPEAKER_01All right, until next time. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast. Music by Joshua from Dope. I'm Allie White. And as always, happy baking and long live real bread.