Saving Bread
Saving Bread explores sourdough, grain, fermentation, craftsmanship, and the people keeping real bread alive. Join baker and educator Allison White for practical lessons and thoughtful conversations with bakers, millers, farmers, oven makers, and others shaping the future of bread.
Long live real bread.
Saving Bread
Interviews E05 Inside Great Bakes with Martin Sorge: Local Grains, Rye and Midwest Baking
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This week on Saving Bread, Allison talks with Martin Sorge, self taught baker, writer, winner of The Great American Baking Show and author of the new cookbook Great Bakes: Modern Classic Recipes from the Midwest.
Martin has spent more than a decade baking with local flour, whole grains and unique grain varieties, and his approach makes experimenting with unfamiliar ingredients feel surprisingly approachable.
In this conversation, Martin and Allison talk about why flour deserves the same attention we give local produce, cheese and other regional foods, and how getting to know the grain itself can completely change the way we bake.
Martin shares one of his favorite ways to test a flour he has never used before: make a very simple shortbread and let the flavor of the grain speak for itself.
They also get into rye bread and some of the misconceptions surrounding it. Martin explains why the flavor many Americans associate with rye is actually caraway, how rye dough behaves differently from wheat dough, why acidity and sourdough are so important in high percentage rye breads and why some traditional rye loaves are actually better when you wait until the next day to cut into them.
The conversation also covers buckwheat, spelt, black emmer, soft honey emmer dinner rolls, local grain from Janie’s Mill, German bread culture and Martin’s experience baking with Arnd Erbel in his centuries old bakery in Dachsbach, Germany.
Martin also shares what competing on The Great American Baking Show taught him about trusting simple flavors and his own point of view, why failed bakes are an important part of becoming a better baker and why he believes bread deserves to be brought back to the center of the table.
Great Bakes: Modern Classic Recipes from the Midwest is available now and includes more than 100 sweet and savory recipes inspired by the ingredients, people and baking traditions of the Midwest.
Follow Martin on Instagram: @martinsorge
Martin Sorge:
martinbakes.com
Great Bakes:
martinbakes.com/books
Martin’s upcoming cookbook events and classes:
martinbakes.com/events
Janie’s Mill:
janiesmill.com
Arnd Erbel and Bäckerei Erbel in Dachsbach, Germany:
arnderbel.de
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Long live real bread.
Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast. This week I am joined by Martin Sorge. Martin is a self-taught baker, writer, and winner of the Great American Baking Show, the first season. And now he's the author of his very first cookbook, Great Bakes, Modern Classic Recipes from the Midwest. Martin has spent years exploring baking through the ingredients and food traditions of the Midwest, with a particular curiosity for local flour, whole grains, seasonal ingredients, and the enormous variety of things we can make when we stop thinking about flour as simply just a white powder in a bag. His new book includes more than 100 sweet and savory recipes. But what I loved about talking with Martin is that his approach to baking feels incredibly curious without ever feeling intimidating. And that brings me to something we talk about in this episode. What if the reason you think you do not like rye bread has almost nothing to do with rye? And when was the last time you thought about a bag of flour the same way that you might think about a perfect summer peach, a tomato from the farmer's market, or cheese from a local producer? Martin and I talk about why he has been seeking out local grains and unusual flour varieties for more than a decade, and how he makes ingredients like rye, buckwheat, spelt, and black emmer feel completely normal and approachable. We get into brownies made with rye flour, 100% buckwheat shortbread cookies, which by the way I made and were delicious, incredibly soft honey emmer dinner rolls, corn, cakes, and of course, bread. And we spend some real time on rye. Martin explains why rye dough behaves so differently from wheat, why sourdough and acidity matter in a high percentage rye bread, and why some traditional rye loaves are actually better if you wait an entire day before cutting into them. And why the flavor so many Americans associate with rye bread is often actually caraway. So, some really cool topics. We also talk about Martin's time baking in Germany, what he learned working inside a traditional German bakery, what the great American baking show taught him about trusting his own point of view, and why becoming a better baker sometimes means being willing to make something kind of bad once or twice or three times and just keep trying again. Martin is incredibly knowledgeable, but I think what I appreciated most about him is that he makes you feel like you can actually just do this. You can buy the unfamiliar bag of flour, you can make the rye bread, you can mess up and you can make it again. Whether you bake bread every week or you simply love baking and want to think a little differently about the ingredients in your kitchen, there's so much in this conversation for you. I'm Allie White, and this is Saving Bread.
SPEAKER_00It rhymes with George, unless you're in Germany, and then it's Zorge, which means trouble or worry.
SPEAKER_01Yes. It's amazing. Okay, so you have a new bake book coming out. And before we even get into the book, um, which is Great Bakes, modern classic recipes from the Midwest, um, before I, yeah, there it is. Before I, so I've been to Chicago quite a few times. I actually got married in Chicago and I love it there. I'm I'm very inspired by the architecture, which I feel like it's well known for, and the food. But before I even began reading, the design felt very Chicago to me and like the geometric lines, the typography, illustrations, color palette. It really reminded me of like Frank Lloyd Wright and that broader Midwestern design. So was Chicago part of the visual inspiration for this book?
SPEAKER_00It definitely was. You know, all almost the entire team who put the book together is based in Chicago or very nearby. So I think uh at least subconsciously it was. And then I really wanted to evoke the Midwest and that sort of prairie style architecture and also some of that nostalgia really went into the look and feel of the book, and especially the cover by Morgan Ramberg, the illustrated cover. She just had a vision, which strangely enough was very different from my vision. But then after we we made some tweaks and nailed down, I'm like, this is perfect.
SPEAKER_01So when you're writing a book like this, you come with an idea and then your team sort of works together to have the final design. Did you come to this with a really strong vision of the food in the book, the bakes in the book? The ingredients are very Midwest, so the cover needs to represent that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so I am more of a baker and a writer, and the visual aspect of putting together a cookbook was actually the scariest part for me because I knew I wanted it to look nice, but I didn't know what that meant as much as some authors who I think are really visual forward. Like I focus on the words and I tried to get my voice to come out in the book and have a certain perspective. And then I actually worked pretty collaboratively with the whole team to decide what it should look like. Um my food stylist Molly Hayward really helped a lot. Like we just chatted for a while and she was like, okay, I think I have some ideas. So I let kind of each creative person on the team bring something that they thought would fit um the text of the book.
SPEAKER_01I almost like that better. It's like you had your strength, which was the words, the recipes, what you wanted people to feel and experience. And then you had this team of people who helped you sort of materialize that into a vision of the entire picture from start to finish, everything that you experience inside, because the recipes inside are very representative of the area that you're from.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yep, that's exactly kind of how the process turned out.
SPEAKER_01It was I love that. That's great. So you call these modern classic recipes from the Midwest, but this book never feels like a collection of stereotypes to me. So, what makes a recipe feel genuinely Midwestern to you and from your area?
SPEAKER_00I think about that a lot. To me, a Midwestern bake is honestly simply something baked by a Midwesterner, somebody who's raised here or lived here, and these days that has like 69 million different iterations of it. And this is really my version of it. So I don't want to claim to speak from everyone from the Midwest. So this is my, you know, being a Hoosier with German heritage who now lives in a big city, who spends time up in cherry country in Michigan. So this is really my perspective. Um and I love ingredients that are grown here. I really focused on that and I took that more than just, you know, cherries and sweet corn, I took that beyond to especially to working with a ton of whole grains and interesting grain varieties in the book. So I really wanted to tap into the ingredients, but also kind of my specific story of the Midwest.
SPEAKER_01I love what you just said there because I think the exact wording was it's anything that's baked by someone from the Midwest or anyone who is a Midwesterner. And what a true thing to say. I'm have Mexican heritage and my um mom was from Canada, but I enjoy making food from all over the world. And I know that people in this area enjoy making Mexican food, even if they're not from Mexico, and it's just um an expression of who we are, the what's growing around us, the foods that we enjoy. So I love that you're not saying that it's a claim to the entire region, but it's really unique to your story and your experiences and the things that you personally find exciting and valuable.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I I was thinking a lot about that because I'm also like you. Like I love making South Asian food. I can walk to a great Bon Mi restaurant. So my world is very multicultural, but also Midwestern. And so two of my good friends who I was on the Great American Baking Show with, um, Sarah Chang and Narali Chowhan, I had them both kind of collaborate with me on a recipe because those brought in like two very different Midwestern stories. They were both born and raised here. So it it just kind of adds a little more um nuance to what it means to be a Midwestern bake.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like a lot of your experience making this book was really collaborative.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's that's great. That feels really um respectful and thoughtful and kind. And I I do think it comes out in a lot of different ways in the book. I I smiled my way through most of the book. It's it's very well done. So, kind of to touch back on what you just said, as a society, I think we often celebrate like a local peach, a local tomato, um, cheese from a local farm, or meat from a butcher down the street, but flour is commonly treated as an anonymous, like white powder and almost a vessel to deliver the baked good. Your book includes different types of whole grain flour. It feels like an invitation to try something new with different types of flour varieties. Why do you think that grain and whole grains have been left out of the local food conversation in mainstream baking up until now?
SPEAKER_00I think a lot of people don't know how to necessarily incorporate them into their baking, especially home bakers who aren't, you know, really serious bakers. They're used to all-purpose flour, maybe whole wheat flour, maybe bread flour. And I'm the type of person who I see a new ingredient and I get really excited. Even if that's, you know, that might be a new variety of plum or it might be a new variety of flour. And so I've actually been baking with a lot of local flours for probably more than a decade now. And I wanted to imbue that because I do it all the time. That's just how I bake. So I had to imbue it in these recipes, and I almost try to do it a little sneakily sometimes, like my brownie recipes made with rye flour, but I do not call them rye brownies. They are just brownies, and the the flour is rye.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I feel like you're normalizing using different grains and grain varieties in your book. You're not making it some scary, unapproachable thing. It's like just here it is, and this is the recipe, and just make it.
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's the goal.
SPEAKER_01Can you tell me? Just I'm so curious because I've asked a few different people this question. I'm really curious to hear your answer. When you get a new type of flour or what you just described, a plum, is it did you say plum that you've never tried before? How do you decide what you're going to do with it? Let's let's focus specifically on flour. Do you taste it um baked a certain way? Are you thinking about what it pairs with? What is your like litmus test for using a new green?
SPEAKER_00It depends on um a few things. I think a really fun way to test like how it's gonna taste is to make a really simple short bread with a new flour. And that gives you, like, you know, don't add any extracts or flavorings, just like sugar, butter, salt, and that flour. And that gives you a sense of what it tastes like, especially in a sweet bake. Yeah. And then you also see how it works, like what's the texture? Is it dry? Is it more wet? Or I will do a simple no-need bread recipe and say replace half of the bread flour with that flour to see what does this taste like? What kind of texture does it give? What sort of hydration does it require? Um, I start with those really simple things. If a flour is really new, or if I can tell, like, oh, this looks like or feels like a spelt flour I'm familiar with, or a whole wheat flour, then maybe I'll add it and just swap it in a place I would normally use that flour. I'm starting to like dabble into more gluten-free and other grain flours, and that's a whole other conversation. Like, will it work or not? So sometimes you just have to try it and you're like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01I recently, probably about six months ago, I got a bunch of freshly milled local buckwheat, and I was like, oh, I'll just put 10% in my regular country dough, and it'll be completely fine. And it was not fine. It was not fine. It was like a frisbee, but it was a really delicious frisbee. But I learned a lot about its behavior.
SPEAKER_00I love buckwheat. It's me too. You if it's if you read the book, you'll say, Wow, there's a lot of it because you can swap it one for one with um regular all-purpose flour and a lot of cake and cookie recipes, and you get I shockingly get the same sort of texture. It does have a flavor, a distinctive flavor that I love, but it's it's not neutral.
SPEAKER_01It announces itself. And that is something that I I don't bake a lot of cakes or cookies. I that's just not an area where I have a lot of experience. But what I really appreciated about your book is I was thinking, oh, that might be a great use for it, just because I have tried it with bread. And I have one way that works really well, but I have so much buckwheat. So it inspired me to think about different ways that I could use it that aren't just my normal throw it in at 10% bread, like think outside of the box a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and 100% buckwheat shortbread, like super plain, is just like so delicious, not super sweet, and it like is that pure buckwheat flavor. It's one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think I'm gonna make that after we're done chatting because that sounds really good. And I have a lot of buckwheat. Okay, so you brought up Janie's mill several times throughout the book. You said that you've been baking with whole grains for about 10 years now. Is that a partnership that's newer? And if so, how is that relationship and having a local regional mill sort of influenced your baking? Has it enriched it? Can you tell us about that relationship and what that feels like, what that looks like?
SPEAKER_00So I've been buying their flour for I can't remember how long. A few years ago when I first visited the mill, Jill, who was kind of the first employee at the mill, said, I remember you were one of our first 100 customer retail customers. So that was really fun. So it goes way, way back. And it was just great to have a local mill that offered a really diverse array of both like flour blends, but also different whole grain varieties and ancient grain varieties. So it was fun to, you know, buy a little one and a half pound bag. It's nice to get those smaller bags that they sell and test it in different ways. And so I really use their flour to clay with and add a little bit to my loaf or to again like a shortbread recipe. And I've sort of grown with them as they've added more products to their range. I became friends with them. I visited the mill and the farm. There's a photo of me in one of their organic rye fields in the book because I said, Can I come take a picture in your field? And it's the same grain that I use in my book. There's pictures they were really nice to let me take some grain stalks and whole grains to put in a photo of the book. So yeah, we go way back, and it's just that connection to and meeting the people behind it and seeing the fields is just one of those things you can't really replicate. Yeah, and the quality of the flour, too. I always think about their rye flour, it has a really specific flavor that I now know what it tastes like. It's like this light cinnamon tone, can get a little fruity when it ferments really well. Um, their black emmer flour is really mild and works really well in cakes in addition to bread. So I've got to know some of their flowers pretty well.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited to talk about the black emmer when we get closer to the bread chit chat, because that's not something that I've tried before, and I I really do want to try it. So I'm curious to hear about it. And you said that you were one of the OGs, which is so cool because I feel like a lot of people are jumping on this whole grain train now, but you've been doing this for a long time. So, what originally inspired you to look for local grain when it wasn't something that a lot of people were talking about? Like, how did you even have that idea?
SPEAKER_00I am just a super curious baker and food person. And if I see something I've never had or seen before, I have to try it, whether it's like a dish at a restaurant or again, like I said, a new fruit variety, or I just have to try it even if I have no idea what it is or no background. And when I started seeing kind of the local grain, um, a few local millers emerge here in the Chicago area. There's a handful of others besides Janie's mill. I just really had a fun time trying these new flowers because again, I thought, oh, it's just flowers that white powder from the grocery store. I didn't realize it could be incorporated into like my love for the farmer's market or meeting the local farms where I know I get this is the place that has my favorite peaches, and I'm like, oh, this is the place that has my favorite flower.
SPEAKER_01You're so cool.
SPEAKER_00Or I'm a nerd.
SPEAKER_01The right kind of nerd, though. The right kind. So, what else are they growing? So, do they have corn?
SPEAKER_00They have everything. Um, they have a couple varieties of corn, they have bloody butcher and then kind of classic yellow dent corn. Um, a couple years ago they said, Oh, do you want to come ride the combine while we harvest corn? And I said, That that'll be fun. I did grow up in Indiana surrounded by cornfields. So it's not like I'm not this a city kid who's never seen cornfields. Um, yeah, and they have spell, they have some Durham wheat, which again that the sifted Durham is really fun to bake with. They have a buckwheat, they have really good rolled oats now, which they just taste odier, I think, because they're fresher.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, they they just keep expanding their portfolio. I think I just got some popcorn from them, which I haven't made yet, but I'm excited too.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel like corn is a little bit of a theme in your career because of the baking show?
SPEAKER_00I think it is a little bit. Um, it is also something I love dearly. I finally got some local corn at the farmer's market this morning, and I will be eating at least two years of it for dinner.
SPEAKER_01I love corn. My the Mexican side of my family, they are currently in Omaha, Nebraska. And so I that my family helped build generations ago, helped build that portion of um the American the railroad. And so there's a lot of them that reside over there still. And there's a lot of corn over there. I mean, it is corn essential. I love corn. It's summertime, we're barbecuing it all the time, but I I guess I often think of it more as like a savory thing, like throw it on the barbecue, um, put butter on it. But your your book is inspiring me to try making a cornbread because that's not something I've ever made before, but that recipe looks really good to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love cornbread. I love using corn in sweet applications, which interestingly, there are lots of cultures that do that. Um, and I just like a sweet corn custard. It's like pudding but corn flavored. So there's so many fun ways you can use it. I've made like a corn and salted caramel ice cream before, which is not in my book, but it will be in one in the future.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I believe it. So some readers see an unfamiliar flour and immediately begin planning substitutions. They might see 50% whole wheat or put 100 grams of spelt flour and they just black out. So do you want them to follow these recipes specifically? And when are you comfortable with flexibility? What is your goal for the baker who's receiving, purchasing, buying this, and getting ready to bake with it?
SPEAKER_00I do like to challenge folks. So I'm saying you can get if it's a whole wheat flour or a spelt flour, you can find most of those. I didn't use anything aside from maybe the um black emmer, I didn't use anything that you can't find at a good grocery store that carries products like from Bob's Red Mill or a few other flour makers that I can find at my grocery store. My recipe testers all use these flowers, and I think most of them are integral to the flavor of the finished bake. And the bake was written knowing you're using this flour. So my chocolate cake uses spelt flour, and I had to adjust some other things in it so that it would work with that flour and have a similar texture to a classic chocolate cake. If you swap out with all-purpose flour, it might not work out the same. Yeah. Um, so I do say like this is this is the recipe. Again, you can change things, but it's not gonna turn out the same and it might not work. Sometimes I'll give them a swap, like, oh, you can't find black emmer because that is kind of weird. Um, you can use whole wheat or spelt in this recipe. So I try to give folks a little flexibility where you can.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And it's an invitation to try something new. I think we've all done kind of the basics, especially if we're seasoned bakers. We've tried, you know, the white flour recipes. Your book is a really beautiful invitation to try something new. And these bags of flour, like when you buy a bag of flour from Janie's or Central Milling or a local miller, this isn't An investment. These are five, maybe ten dollars for a bag of flour. And I would maybe assume that you're we are discouraging people to just kind of order on Amazon. Maybe if they don't live in your area, try to seek out a local miller, someone who's milling fresh, who has different varieties, and um accept that invitation to try something new, meet someone new, taste something new, and um yeah, just step outside of your comfort zone a little bit, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I always think that like these other grains are not going to get popular unless people say here's our recipe to use them and you can't swap out all-purpose flour. So that's I'm one of those people that's like, oh, maybe if we can shift, you know, what's on the grocery store shelves over time, I'm happy to be that person.
SPEAKER_01Things will not change unless there's a roadmap to change them. And my good friend uh Josh Fairbanks, he was on the first episode, he said a lot of these greens don't have a good PR team, which is true. They don't. People don't know what they are, they don't know how to use them. It feels overwhelming. But the more we normalize them, the more readily they'll become available and the more comfortable people will feel working with them. And I think that your book is just this really nice transition of starting to think about things like that. It's really well done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one thing that I I was talking with somebody about recently is I've spent a lot of time baking in Germany, and we might talk a bit about that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00The the German grocery store has at least wheat, spelt, and rye plus other flowers everywhere, and that culture is just really open to different grains. And it's like, hey, we can adapt that kind of mindset of like, oh, maybe we do want to expand our pantry portfolio.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I think that change is always welcome, especially when it comes to new ideas about food. And honestly, they aren't even really new ideas, but they feel new in America because we've kind of gone so far away from having a mill in every town, which is what used to used to exist. Yeah. So we're coming back to our roots. Okay, so I want to talk about these honey emmer dinner rolls. I like this. This is my other recipe that I'm obsessing over in your book. The honey emmer dinner rolls are just top of my list because they seem like a really approachable way to introduce someone to an ancient whole grain, specifically the emmer, which I have not worked with and black emmer. I don't know why. It just sounds really, really good to me. So can you kind of talk us through this recipe, how you chose this grain, what flavors is it bringing to the table? And I I believe there's also like a cooked paste in this recipe as well. So can you tell us a little bit more about this recipe? Because I'm really excited about it.
SPEAKER_00So um, I, you know, I love a crusty bread, but I also love a really soft dinner roll, you know, just how I grow up. And I really love this black emmer. First of all, the grain is really beautiful. It has this like striking black color to the beard and to sometimes the kernels, and it looks really striking. But then the flour is actually fairly light, a lighter colored flour, more like spelt. So it actually has a more mild flavor than you would think looking at it. And so it really lends nicely to kind of pairing with some honey. Like still has a light bitter note like whole wheat does, but it's a lot more mild and almost has a sweetness to it. Um, and so it pairs really well with a little bit of honey and it doesn't overwhelm the rolls, making them feel like super wheaty. They're still super light and fluffy. And part of that is because of that cooked flour paste. So, like uh Tangjong, which some people call it, which I learned Germans also call kochtuch, which they use a lot. You just cook the flour, some of the bread flour in the recipe with some water or milk until you get what I think looks like kind of like loose mashed potatoes. Yeah. And that helps the bread hold on to more water and makes it really fluffy, really soft. And then it also lasts a few days longer. So it's nice. If you're making these for Thanksgiving, you can make them the day before and warm them up and they're still super fresh. And even the next day for your little turkey sandwich, it'll still be good.
SPEAKER_01So it's that is exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking I want to make these for Thanksgiving because the way you described it of them staying soft, I was like, oh, how great I can prepare that in advance and have something that I could use for a few days.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. It's a pretty wet, sticky dough, I think, for folks who are new to bread are gonna be like, oh, this is really wet and soft, but that's how they get so fluffy and soft inside is a really wet, sticky dough. So I use the stand mixer to make it and don't be tempted to add more flour. Okay. It should be sticky.
SPEAKER_01That's a great tip. I I don't make a lot of rolls. I do enjoy eating a lot of rolls, but I don't make them often. So can I ask you once they're in their final shape and they're proofing, how do you know when it's ready to go in the oven? What are you looking for at that last stage when it's that wet, sticky dough? Are you like poking it? Um, is it a percentage rise? When is the exact right time to pop these into the oven?
SPEAKER_00I usually say they should have risen, and it's hard to tell with buns, they should have risen to like one and two-thirds, one and a half times their original size. They won't fully double. And then if you poke them, I would say they should feel full of air. And then usually, like if I poke it and the indentation springs back like halfway and not all the way, I'm like, we're good. Okay. Um, but again, it's one of those things in my book. I talk about this is bread is something you learn by feel. So make them a few times and you'll understand, oh, yep, now they're time to they're going because they feel light. When I poke it, they don't feel dense.
SPEAKER_01So put in the reps.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay, so I'm gonna read one of the quotes from your book that I really liked. Good bread is the most fundamentally satisfying of all foods, and good bread with fresh butter is the greatest of all feasts.
SPEAKER_00That's James Beard.
SPEAKER_01I loved that. And then right after that, I believe you were telling a story about your mom and how she said she just loved all bread. So that quote and that story about your mom, it really resonated with me. My mom is a huge inspiration for my life and my bakery, and she just sounds like a sweetheart from that story that you told. Is she an influence for you for your bread baking because she loves it so much?
SPEAKER_00Oh, of course. I mean, both of my folks are really good, curious, adventurous eaters and definitely instilled that in all their kids. So I think that's the thing they gave us. It's like try new things, be curious, appreciate different flavors. And they're both just happy, fun people. My mom's, you know, really likes to talk and isn't afraid to make new friends anyway.
SPEAKER_01I really got that from the story. I think you said she like announced that she loves all bread. Indeed. Your mom and I have that in common. I love all bread too. So I, as I said in the beginning of this little chit-chat, bread is my jam. I love to make it. It feels not easy to me, but I just enjoy it. I don't really step out much into the other types of baking, but I want to. Um, I just haven't really learned them all yet. So you were on the great American baking show. You have this beautiful book out now. Is there a category of baking that's your favorite and one that really resonates with you? Or do you just kind of hop around depending on seasonality or your mood that day? Where do you continue to find yourself returning to?
SPEAKER_00So the first thing uh I really got good at baking, actually, I was a really bad baker because I didn't like to follow recipes. Um, you know, like cooking, you can throw things in here and there, and it comes out fine. But baking, you can't do that. No. And the first thing I started baking actually was bread because it's a really inexpensive thing to learn because it's like flour, yeast, water, salt.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's really easy. Um, so I keep going back to that. Bread is my favorite thing to make and eat because you can have it for dinner, it can be sweet, it can be savory. I love bread and I love the diversity of bread. So it's like Yeah. I think I even say in my book, like, if I only could make one thing, it would be bread too.
SPEAKER_01I love that answer, and I was really hoping that was going to be your answer, but I didn't want to make any assumptions because you never know. So I like that your and you say this in your book too, the recipes for bread they start out quite simple and then they increase in complexity, but I feel like they almost build upon one another. So if you start at the beginning, you can easily kind of walk your way through it. And I would love to talk about the section about rye. So you told me that your baking has shifted towards German breads. I want to spend some real time here because there's some beautiful German breads and rye breads and pretzels in your book. Um I think a lot of sourdough bakers, especially in America, there's listeners all over the world, but here in America, they're very comfortable with wheat. Very comfortable. But then when we transition into rye, things start to feel a little bit unfamiliar. So what about rye are you loving? And let's maybe get into a little bit of the technicality of rye.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, when I first started baking rye breads, they did not turn out well and I had a lot of challenges. But I said, I think I'm gonna figure this out. For me, it is it really starts with the the flavors and aromas of a really good loaf that is heavy in rye. It has, to me, more aroma, more flavor, sometimes a little more sourness, but not always when baking with rye. And I think a lot of folks who do mostly wheat loaf, if you add a little rye, it really amps up that aroma. Sure. Um but then when you shift to something that is even half rye or 60% rye or a hundred percent rye, like some recipes in my book, you do you get even more of that flavor. But you kind of have to unlearn if you're a normal wheat loaf-based baker, you have to unlearn a little bit. So I always say wheat flour, a wheat-based dough is like a balloon. It can expand when it has elasticity. Rye-based dough is like a foam.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's a great comparison.
SPEAKER_00When you drop it or you change it, it's just gonna deflate and it's not gonna come back up. And it just feels different.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00There's also a whole lot more chemistry with the pentasans and enzymes in rye bread so that that you have to think about when to keep it from being gummy inside after you bake it. But really, the key with that is is you you do have to work with a sourdough, especially with American grown rye. I could we could talk a long time about different rye strains and all that. But the key is you have to use a sourdough.
SPEAKER_03And why is that?
SPEAKER_00Because you need a certain level of acidity to get the right texture in the finished loaf to simplify it. So you do have to have a certain amount of acidity. So some like my Volcorn broat, my whole grain rye bread, has I think more than 50% of the flour is in the is fermented overnight the night before.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I actually had that recipe open because that was the one that looked really exciting to try. And the first one I think I'd like to make. And you're right, it does have quite a bit of pre-fermented flour if we're gonna call it that, and also a soaker with rye chops, which are kind of like coarsely milled rye, right? Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yep, kind of like a steel cut oat, but rye. So, and the other thing I always think about is in in German baking, when you say the term sourdough, the default is a rye sourdough. The starter and the thing is default. If they say sourdough, they really mean rye. They'll say wheat sourdough if they mean something else. So in Germany, that's the default. And once you kind of get the hang of it, it's not any more difficult, and I actually think even maybe a little easier than a wheat-based sourdough bread.
SPEAKER_01I want to believe you. I do, I do believe you. And I really enjoy the flavor of rye. I think I've just had some experiences where it fermented a lot faster than I expected it to, so that was different. But I do really enjoy the flavor. And something else interesting that you said in your book is that a lot of people don't like they or they think they don't like rye, but what they're really tasting is caraway.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Right? Caraway seed. So a lot of people put caraway in rye bread, but that's not actually the flavor of rye. How would you describe the flavor of rye?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so in America, I've just been doing research on this. Pretty much every rye bread you buy at the grocery store or see a recipe for online has caraway seeds in it. Yeah. And so that's the flavor people associate with rye. That is the flavor of caraway. That is not, most of these breads have maybe 20% rye flour. So you're not tasting anything related to rye. Rye has actually a fairly subtle flavor on its own. It's a little bit earthy, not as, to me, not as bitter as a whole wheat flour is. It might have, if you get a really nice rye flour, it almost has a faint hint of like cinnamon or sweet spices. And then you get a lot of flavor from the sourdough fermentation. That's I think where the most of the flavor comes from. And it develops, at least my sourdough develops these really fun, like almost like stone fruit, peachy apricot, fruity notes to it. And then a little bit of acidity. So true rye has this kind of mild, light, spicy fruitiness in my experience.
SPEAKER_01Can I ask you two questions about that? So when we're mixing rye, and I'm selfishly asking this for my myself. When I'm, let's say I'm putting my rye dough in the pan. Am I expecting it to rise as much as I would a wheat dough, or is it much more subtle because of what you described more of a sponge texture where it's not capturing the air inside of these gluten bubbles because there's not much gluten, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it will rise. It won't rise as much, but it will definitely rise and it should rise. It shouldn't be, depending on the recipe, it shouldn't be like a total brick. It will be overall heavier and wetter than a wheat dough, but it will definitely rise. It's not going to be big open crumb structure at all.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00But it should rise and it should have some lift to it and some open some little openness in it when in the finished loaf.
SPEAKER_01Great. And so not like a brick, but a little bit more dense and as you described, a little bit more wet. Does that contribute to the shelf life after it's been baked?
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent. That's one thing I love, especially about the Volcorn Bro, is like A, you can slice it super thin and make really great little open face sandwiches with it, but then it'll last a week on your counter.
SPEAKER_03Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you actually should not cut into it until almost a full day after you bake it.
SPEAKER_01And why is that?
SPEAKER_00It just the the center will be a little more moist than the outside, and you just wrap it up and it the flavor the moisture equalizes a little bit so it won't be like weirdly moist in one part than the other. That's pretty traditional for even German bakeries. They won't sell some of their heavy rye loaves until the next day.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, that's also a great idea for people who are in production baking like myself, because you could make them a day or two in advance and still be able to sell them on your pickup day or your market day or whatever, because it's actually better to wait longer to cut them open.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And like the Bowern Broat, the bungalow broat recipe in my book too. You can I always make that the day ahead. And if I want like a really crunchy crust, I'll then spray it with water and put it back in the oven. Just enough to give it a crispy crust, but then the texture inside will still be great.
SPEAKER_01What are some of the things that you eat with your rye breads? Because I'm as I guess what I've seen is more maybe like uh cream cheese and salmon or like pickled onions and more savory things. But how are you enjoying these? Because I wonder if someone sees this and they want to make it, but then they're like, I don't know how to eat it. What are you pairing it with?
SPEAKER_00I eat a lot of mine the same. I do any wheat bread that I would buy. Okay. Um it you you taste the bread, see what it goes well with, but I will put butter and jam on it just because I'm American and I like that. Yeah. But a slice of cheese, some of the varieties you can make sandwiches out of. I do a lot of what the Germans do in the evening and have Abendbrote, which is a very traditional German dinner of slices of bread and either slices of cheese or spreads or cold cuts or butter, and then you have a really easy, low-stress dinner. Um that's what I do a lot.
SPEAKER_01I love that idea so much. It's that's like my ideal dinner at on bread day. We typically will just slice up all the loaves that are left over and possibly have a few people over, and it's just like meat and cheese and fruit and butter and oil, and it's like everyone just eats all the things and you get to pick at everything that you like. So I love knowing that I could make one of these rye breads and that could just fit right in. I wouldn't have to do anything special or out of the ordinary to be able to enjoy it. I can just make it and eat it with all the things I normally like.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And then it's a fun, because rye breads, high percentage rye breads can be really different from if you're making like a beautiful wheat sourdough. And it's fun to see like what pairs differently with the different things. Like, oh, because this is a stronger flavored bread, maybe I can pair it with a stronger flavored topping. And if you have people over, you can get fun and nerdy like that.
SPEAKER_01I love that. That's that's my dream. That's my best case scenario hangout session with my friends. If we all eat bread and butter and pair them with different toppings. Okay, so I have just a few more questions for you. We'll we'll try to get it within the full hour, but I'm I'm gonna butcher this, so I'll probably cut it out. But you spent some time with Frey Backery. How do I say it this way?
SPEAKER_00Frey bakery.
SPEAKER_01Okay, go ahead and tell us. Yes, tell us um about that experience and start with the name because I my mouth won't do that.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I spent a few days baking at Arnt Airbull's bakery. He's a pretty well-known baker in a rural Franconia, which is the northern part of Bavaria, in a town called Dachsbach, which is a beautiful town and a beautiful region. And he is this incredibly talented baker. He was actually trained both as a baker with his family's bakery that's been around for hundreds of years, but also trained as a pastry chef and worked in a hotel in Vienna. And he really makes bread a lot of bread like the old school way. Everything is sourdough, even the sweet baked goods. When they're scaling out the bread, it's still one of those scales with the two arms that you put the weights into, you know, because he's like, it still works. Why would we get rid of it? Sure. Um, and he's also just one of the loveliest humans, and he loves to teach people and he loves to tell you the stories about the eggs that they get and the flour that they get and every little thing. Um, so I was so lucky that he said, Come here and bake with us for a couple days. You'll work in the bakery, mind you, I am not a professional baker. I have never worked in a bakery. I have, I know what I'm doing, and I'm a big nerd, but I'm not like production baking, not my thing. And he just threw me in and said, I trust you, my team will teach you how this works. Like I didn't, you know, mix the doughs necessarily, but I helped shape these like really high hydration rhido's, which yeah, that's a whole other thing. Shaping rhido's, you're gonna be like, What is this? This is mud. And I just learned so much. I did a few batch of bread on my own, and just seeing both his recipes and how he makes things, but also the philosophy behind these, like, like it is in my mind the best bakery on the planet, and part of it is because the people behind it and that philosophy you see, and this the customers like reflect that. And it was just a magical few days where I learned so much, and I'd already turned in the manuscript for this book, but uh let me tell you, the next book will be very influenced by Arn's baking and funny.
SPEAKER_01You're already thinking of a second book.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, great, wow, you're an overachiever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have um, you know, there's things where I'm like, I have to tell this story, and I feel like move too, and there's some things where I'm like, no, I have to get this out of me.
SPEAKER_01Sure, of course.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm hearing you say that you really loved how he was connected with his product and his community and was talking about his eggs and everything had a story. I I do feel that's similar to what you're doing, where all of your baking has a story and you're connected with the ingredients and you're connected with the farmers and the people who are growing things around you. Is that kind of what called you to go spend time there, or was that a surprise when you got there?
SPEAKER_00I knew that would be his philosophy, but as I've been traveling to Germany a lot learning about German baking, several other bakers I've talked to have said, Oh, you you should talk to him, you should go meet him. I actually met a woman who runs a big, famous wine estate in that same region where Art lives. And we were sitting at a dinner here in Chicago, and I told her how much I love German bread, and she said, You must go study with my friend Art. And so that and I'm like, okay, I will. And he was nice enough to have me, but it really started there. And you know, when you can when you talk to people that have a similar philosophy, that you you know this is gonna work out well. And even with my first conversation with him, I said, Oh, this will be fun. We agree on so much, and I'm just excited to see how it manifests in your bread.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's interesting that you don't consider yourself a professional baker. I would very much consider your Professional baker, but I understand what you mean because you were thrown in what's essentially a stage, right? And had to work in production and something that you've never done before, it can feel very overwhelming the first time. I worked stage, even though I was in my own production. I was very nervous. I was like, I'm gonna ruin all the bread, like I don't know what to do, but everyone was very kind. Do you feel like you came home a different baker after that experience of making things just over and over in in mass quantities and then coming back? How did that change how you feel in your bakery? Or what is another thing that you took away from that as far as production?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I definitely felt totally different. I was reminded that in the right circumstances, baking 100 loaves is the same as baking one loaf. It's just more. But, you know, I write recipes for home bakers. I have no plans to open a bakery. So I like to think about how do I translate what we did in Dochsbach to my home kitchen. And some things work and some things are challenging. Like if you have a warm bakery all day, the way things ferment is really different from a drafty old Chicago bungalow that in the winter isn't warm. So you have to think about those little things that really change how a bread would, you know, you can't make the exact same thing in this wood fire deck oven when you load it up with a ton of bread as you do at home. So you have to make those changes and tweaks and not even to mention the differences in flour from different countries and how that works. So I learned, I both learned a lot there, but thought a lot about how things were different.
SPEAKER_01Yes, this is a conversation that I had with other Martin when I was up in San Francisco a few days ago, and a conversation I had with Alex from Wild Woman, going somewhere and being inspired by something that you taste, something that you experience, and then you want to bring it home and you want to recreate it, but you you really cannot. So you're chasing a flavor, a texture, a feeling, and then you almost what you're describing, create it in your own way with your own flower and your own environment almost as an honor to that experience that you've had, but still recognizing it will never be exactly the same, but it will represent this lovely experience that you had, and it will represent you and your baking and the flavors growing around us, and I think that's just a beautiful story. So I'm excited to see what you do with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll have to send you a draft recipe of the bread that aren't like is really known for that I took home and made my own. Again, it's it's heavy rye, so it's a a little bit of a learning curve, but it's so good.
SPEAKER_01I don't know why, but you make me feel like I could just bake anything. It's you're very like, oh yeah, just just do it. And that's yeah, you can.
SPEAKER_00You might mess up once, but you just gotta try again.
SPEAKER_01Baking, you have to be really okay with some fails before the success. That's the only way to learn. And that can be an uncomfortable place for some, but it's just necessary. That's part of it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, I think somebody asked me, like, what do you hope somebody, you know, if they make a mistake in the book, what do you think that I was like, I hope somebody makes bread and it underproves it or overproves it or something because you have to do that once.
SPEAKER_01You have to. It is a rite of passage when you're baking. And I learned so much by making really bad bread, more than a successful loaf, because I'm like, well, I won't do that again. Like, that's wasn't the right temperature. The first loaf of freshly milled whole wheat that I ever made. I bought a grain mill, I bought some whole grains, and I just milled it and then mixed it into the dough, like literally seconds after it come through them. It was still hot. It was like fresh, literally fresh, seconds fresh. And it was horrible, but I learned not to do that, right? It's just every little thing you learn something new, and that's the beauty of it. I think it's always there's always another step of the ladder. There's always something new and different. And I feel like it's been a while since I've seen um a bake book that had freshly milled or even roller milled whole grains in it that were different than what I normally try until I got the copy of your book. And so I'm just so excited to to try some new things, and it really inspires me and it's encouraging me to like get outside of my box and try something new. So thank you for that. Okay, so I didn't want to spend too much time on this because I'm sure you've spoken at length about it, but you succeeded for those who don't know on the Great American Baking Show, and I feel like you really kept your flavors focused in a way that still felt recognizably you. Did that experience give you greater confidence when you went to make this book, specific to your region and your ingredients and your taste? Did that experience influence what you have created now?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I think going on the show, I took two steps back and thought, don't try anything that is way outside your comfort zone. Also, I don't have time to like learn a crazy new technique. So I said, what tells the best story? Because they're also making a TV show. So what tells the story about me? So I tried to look inside and be like, what are these what how can I make a story in each thing that I bake on the show? And that turned out to be like super Midwestern flavors or some really classic things that I just, you know, love, even if it seems simple or doesn't seem hip or trendy. I'm like, no, this is what I like. I'm not trying to be someone else. And so I really took that into my book because people really respond to that. The judges sometimes would taste something way more complicated and then something that I made that I thought was too simple, and they're like, no, this is perfect. And I'm like, oh, I guess simple can be okay. So that's I took that into making the book as kind of reflecting some of those flavors, not trying to be different for different sake. I do a lot of twists of things, but they tend to be like subtle and cozy and not hopefully not scaring anybody away.
SPEAKER_01No, nothing in your books is feel scary or overwhelming. Sometimes if I have to buy 10 new ingredients for one recipe, I'm like, I'm out, I'm done. I can't. But yours is very straightforward, very approachable, very thoughtful. And I will agree with you. I think that people can identify in authenticity immediately or something that is too far outside of who the person is. And I recently re-watched your season with my older daughter because she's really into baking shows. And I was like, I get to talk to this person, let's watch him bake. And we're, even though we knew the outcome, we were rooting for you the whole time. And I do think that all of your bakes just felt authentically you. And I think that's the most important thing at the end of the day. Does your bake, does your product, your bread, your cake, your cookie, whatever tell your story? Because that's kind of all we have as people in the, let's call it the culinary arts is can we communicate who we are through the things that we make?
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Uh my uh one reason my bakes were also sometimes a little simple is I am not a fast baker and I knew like if I added too much stuff, I wouldn't get done.
SPEAKER_01That is truly the downfall of a lot of people on the baking show, though. They have these grandiose ideas and then the pressure of the tent and it's hot or raining or whatever, and then it all falls apart. So that's actually, I think, a very uh smart uh time slow. That's okay. So let's give our listeners a few ways into great bakes. One recipe that builds confidence, one that changes how they think about flour, and one that best represents your baking today. And maybe it's all the same recipe, but what would you be most excited for for like three recipes you'd be most excited for people to start with?
SPEAKER_00I think, first of all, I do love bread, but I do adore any sort of pie pastry type thing is make your own pie crust. Okay. The recipe in my book is you make it by hand, you don't need any tools. Um, you know, you can make it with kids because you get your hands in there and squeeze the butter, and you can make a million different things with that pastry recipe. So start with the pastry recipe and then pick do I want to make a pie? Do I want to make a giant cherry pop-tart? Do I want to make a savory galette? Do I want to make a quince and manche go turnover? So you can make a lot of things with that one recipe and building that foundational recipe, which are often in the back of books, which I do not like.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's the first recipe in the chapter. So getting your hands in there and making some of your homemade pie crust will really build confidence in yourself as a baker. And that's a recipe I have memorized. I go to somebody's house and I'm like, should we make something with pastry? Let me make some pie dough real quick.
SPEAKER_01That's a cool flex for sure.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then the other one I think if you're trying to trying out a new flour, I would say test out the Volcorn Bro recipe in the book. Okay. It's shockingly easy. It's easier, I think, than baking some wheat breads because you don't have to worry about looking for window pane test or any sort of gluten development. It's really easy. It's a handful of ingredients. It just requires a sourdough starter and time. And like I suggest in the book, don't make your own sourdough starter, just ask someone else.
SPEAKER_01I fully agree with you. I just tried making my own, and after the third day, I was like, I'm out.
SPEAKER_00Nope, don't do it. There's so many people tossing it in the compost.
SPEAKER_01Agree. Okay, that's really good. Okay, I'm writing these down because I want to do it. I definitely want to make the pie crust with my kids. Thank you for suggesting that because that's a really fun way for them to participate and like you said, build confidence. And then what would the third one be?
SPEAKER_00What would the third one be? I think there's a really fun kind of flex recipe in the back. Like I really love making shoe pastry, which is the pastry you cook on the stove, and it can turn into like cream puffs or gougers, which are oh my favorite cheese puffs. But I have so I was writing this book and I kind of got sick of making things I couldn't eat for dinner. And so I said I d I had this idea for completely other bake, and then I turned kind of a classic Paris Breast, which is a French patisserie like ring of shoe pastry. I turned it into what looks like a giant cream cheese and lox bagel. So it's like a ring of shoe pastry with this fluffy, lightened cream cheese filling, cucumbers, capers, onions, and smoked salmon. And it's just a great dinner party dish. It's even lighter than eating a bagel with cream cheese, and it's just, I don't know. I can eat it every day.
SPEAKER_01Can I ask you on a scale of one to ten, how difficult is it to make shoe pastry? Because I do think that it has a little bit of a reputation of being more challenging, but the way you're describing it sounds like it might not be that hard.
SPEAKER_00I I've definitely messed it up a few times, like everything else, but I don't find it any harder than any other baking discipline.
SPEAKER_01That is something that I'd really like to um get better at making it. So I used to work at Whole Foods a long time ago when they made everything in-house, and I would help with the shoe pastry a little bit, but there were two very experienced pastry chefs there, and I've I've been wanting to try it um ever since I've started baking again, but I just didn't have a good recipe. So I'll try yours and I'll report back. That little ring with the smoked salmon sounds like I want to eat that right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the the cheese puffs, which Gougers like I saw everywhere for a long time, and I said, What? Yeah, this doesn't interest me. And then I made them for the first time and I ate them all. It's one of those things you can freeze them before you bake them and then like pop them out for a party, and people are like, Oh, and you're like, Yeah, I had these in my freezer.
SPEAKER_01That's actually a great idea because I can't tell you how many times, you know, I just have like a last-minute people, we just have people show up at the house often, especially on bread day. I'm like, come in, whatever. It would be great to have something like that in the freezer that I could just pop in and have it ready to go to add to our little smorgasboard of all the things. That's a fantastic idea. Okay, so my closing question that I ask everyone is this is the Saving Bread podcast. And I think that saving bread means something different to everyone. And you have a very unique perspective and experience when it comes to baking and baking bread. So when you hear saving bread and when you think about that, what does that mean to you? What are you trying to protect?
SPEAKER_00For me, saving bread is really more around putting bread back at the center of our plate and our table. It's not even as much like making the bread. There's a lot of folks like you who are doing a great job of making wonderful bread. It's thinking about how we incorporate it into our food culture. Bread is not bad for you. It is not gonna make you fat. It is not something you should avoid. I really don't like when people say I'm trying not to eat bread. It's a very healthy food. It's one of the most sustainable foods in terms of carbon footprint, even more so than just plain rice. Bread is. And there are a lot of cultures that really have bread at the center of the table. I've spent a lot of time in Germany where that's like it is the most important food in their culture, and they eat it every day, all day. And when I go there and eat the bread, I'm like, oh, it's fun to bring bread back to the table. And then you get to think about, oh, I don't just want one type of bread, I want different types of bread, and I can have it in different preparations. And sometimes maybe the centerpiece of our dinner is a big, beautiful loaf of bread and not a big piece of meat. So that's really to me what saving bread is is like bringing it back to something that like we get a fresh loaf of bread, and that is like the centerpiece of a meal.
SPEAKER_01And it's celebrated.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. I think bread is beautiful, and I think it's it's how you enjoy it that I think is is the one thing that we need to talk to folks maybe a little bit more about is like let's bring it back. Like you might get this as a special occasion, but put it on your plate.
SPEAKER_01That's an that's an amazing answer, and I agree completely. It's an invitation to share, it's an invitation to have more people at the table. It's an invitation to tell your story and build bridges, which is what we need now more than ever. And I I really loved that answer. So thank you for that. And thank you for again sending me a copy of your incredible bake book, Great Bakes. I cannot wait to start my rye journey and I'll be sending you pictures. And yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to watching all of the wonderful things that you continue to do. So tell our listeners when your book comes out, when they can buy it, where they can buy it, all of the things.
SPEAKER_00My book, um, which is called Great Bakes, Modern Classic Recipes from the Midwest, will be out August 4th. And you can buy it anywhere books are sold. So your local bookstore, anywhere online. Some places are selling signed copies, and then I have 25 to 30 events around the country scheduled. So if you go to my website, martinbakes.com slash events, maybe I can see you. That would be great.
SPEAKER_01That would be great. And you'll be in my area in San Francisco at Omnivore on August 27th. That is correct. I wrote it down August 27th. That's a Thursday, and I believe it's at 6 or 6 30 p.m. So if you're in the SF Bay area, that's a great place to be able to meet you, and and you can order the book ahead of time, I believe, too. And you'll be there, and will you be signing books?
SPEAKER_00Indeed, I will. And you might get to meet some of my other baking show contestant friends.
SPEAKER_01Oh, great. Oh, that is quite the temptation. Well, this has been amazing. I will go ahead and end the recording for us, but I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast and answer my million questions. And um, thank you.
SPEAKER_00I've been loving listen to listening to the podcast. I'm like, oh, it's I love what all these people are saying.
SPEAKER_01Isn't it nice? It's a great group of people, the bread communities. Yeah, I'm thankful for it. All right, let me stop it for us and we can chit-chat for another minute. Thank you again, Martin, for taking the time to be on the Saving Bread podcast with us. I really loved Martin's answer at the end of his conversation about what saving bread means to him. He talked about bringing bread back to the center of the table and not treating bread as something we should be avoiding or apologizing for eating, but something beautiful and worthy of being the centerpiece of the table, the centerpiece of a meal. And I think that idea really runs through this entire conversation. Pay attention to the flour. Try that unfamiliar grain. Learn where your ingredients are coming from and make something that you've never made before. Be willing to mess up and invite people to the table to eat it with you. Martin's new cookbook, Great Bakes, Modern Classic Recipes from the Midwest, is out now. It includes more than 100 sweet and savory recipes, and you can order it anywhere books are sold, including through your local independent bookstore. If you enjoyed Martin as much as I did, please go follow him on Instagram at Martin Sorge, S-O-R-G-E. You can also find him at martinbakes.com where he shares his recipes, events, his newsletter, and more. And of course, go buy the book. I've already baked from it myself, and there's still so many recipes I want to make. It's just one of those books that makes you want to pick up an ingredient you've never worked with before and see what you can do with it. Thank you again, Martin, for spending this time with me and for sharing so much of your knowledge and genuine curiosity about baking. And if something in today's episode made you think differently about rye or whole grains or local flour or just what you might want to bake next, send this episode to someone who you know would enjoy it too. Sharing the Saving Bread Podcast with another baker is one of the best ways you can support the podcast and help these conversations reach more people. Until next time. Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast. Music by Joshua from Dope. And as always, happy baking and long live Real Bread.